How To Be An Ally

Bonnie Violet discusses with Tina Frank on what Allyship is and how one could be an ally.

Referenced in video
10 Things Allies Can Do http://www.ywcahbg.org/sites/default/files/manager/10%20Things%20Allies%20Can%20Do.pdf
5 Tips to Be An Ally - Chescaleigh - https://youtu.be/_dg86g-QlM0
How to be a better Ally - LifeHacker - https://youtu.be/T3Nh55sSgewow
How to be an Ally - Buzzfeed - https://youtu.be/u5MOJBflMgw

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Tina, a conservative christian woman and Bonnie Violet, a trans gender queer drag queen have an anti-cancel culture conversation. While many family members are choosing to no longer speak, we have chosen to sit at the table and engage in difficult conversation to find peace and restoration.

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Transcript

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hey everybody good morning welcome to season four episode two of splintered grace today we're going to be talking

about allyship but just a quick reminder of who i am my name is tina frank i'm

one of the co-hosts of splintered grace and i am a conservative mature christian who follows the teachings of jesus

christ and i am bonnie violet i am a trans femme genderqueer spiritual drag artist

identity doula and digital chaplain excited to be here that's awesome you know while many

family members are having and choosing to be

i don't know at large we're choosing to speak on a regular basis we have chosen this yeah um

you said what i say yeah that's okay um either way um you know we get

together to have a conversation um in order to try to restore our our restore our relationship um

this uh is brought to you by a queer chaplain productions and each week we go live for

our vodcast audience on facebook youtube and twitch and you can always listen to

our episode afterwards uh wherever you listen to podcasts yeah so how's it going sorry about that

it's going pretty good it's still early here i'm still drinking my coffee so yeah yeah no it's all good it's all good

scripts are hard to get used to it so it's so easy to want to go off of it and then yeah

it's all good anyways that's awesome it happens um good morning how are you doing good

morning to you too i'm doing good i'm in boise idaho still or again i think i was

oh i wasn't here last week last week and we didn't say this but last week i was actually in arizona with you i was just

in the other room yeah yeah yeah i mean it was nice having you here

yeah it was nice to be there um i know it's like uh we we were gonna try to do it to where we were like sitting side by

side and we had some tech issues where it was just like we got to keep it the way we know it

yeah yeah i'm the weakest link in all that just so everybody knows no no it's

like it gets complicated i get comfortable enough to where like i know what needs to be what and then i can

feel secure but to switch that up at all i get a little wonky

yeah that's funny well so today we decided to talk a little bit about allyship last week we went into some detail on

some of the lgbt community things to help most folks that i know probably on

what all that means and how to be respectful and all that so um bonnie what would you think is the

first thing we have to i don't know what's the first thing that needs to happen to start us on that partnership of

allyship okay yeah yeah um so i think yeah i think the big part is is like what does it mean to like to be an ally like what

is an ally um and i think like i did a lot of research myself um on kind of

figuring out how is the best way to talk about you know being an ally you know um

you know like as you know like as a trans person people who are not

trans um could potentially be allies for me um or oftentimes i work at trying to

be an ally for folks who are not like myself so maybe folks who are of people

individuals so people who are of color um people who are um differently abled you know there are

plenty of uh people in the world like and there's different moments in my life when i have

a little bit more privilege or power in a particular situation or i have

a different or better experience with something and um so so in that in that sense that would

put me in a position to be an ally you know i know sometimes we use the word privilege often um which i know can be a

hard word stop go lay down i'm glad i'm not the only one with

extras in that yeah i don't know what her deal is so um

but yeah so allyship is i mean it can be list a lot of different ways but basically it's like you have some form

of privilege um that that can afford but yeah it just i don't know if i'm trying to think the

best way to to describe it now i'm kind of getting in my head about it

well one of the thoughts i had was that i think the first step for anyone is to choose you know we need to choose okay i

want to i want to be an ally to this person i want to be in relationship with this person i want to so and i think

that's something that you and i have done we have chosen to not only be in relationship but to be aligned with one

another and to be allies to one another and a lot of people don't choose that

and doesn't then therefore um well we all know the rest of the story

yeah one of the um one of the things where i was looking at um they stated an ally is someone who

this had a lot more like big words in it that i thought you know i think one of the time things in in talking with

allyship or working with different people language becomes i think really important and

i think that um for me i'm often trying to navigate how best i can speak to you

and your audience um in a way that could be could be heard um and so um

i'm trying to think of how to um say this different but basically it's it's just the idea that you might be in a

position to where you might be able to help somebody who's different um from yourself um or you're in a

position to maybe yeah you're in a position to help them right or assist or go along with them in their journey

exactly what i think this podcast is all about in a lot of ways yeah yeah

so you think the ally ship could be with like people too i mean i feel like i'm in

people that are similar or like or walk in the same uh journey you think they

can be allies also well i think i think when we're talking about allyship in

this in this format or in this way you know we are specifically talking about

um you have like like that there is some sort of difference between us that sets

us apart typically usually socially or in some sort of power dynamic

um so i i don't think that there's um you know there's there's not that space

of um equal like equal experience um in that moment or in that particular

relationship so does that answer your question

a little bit yeah it does for this for this platform yeah

i mean otherwise we're just like pals or we're buddies or we're friends like what's um i think an ally is you have something

to bring to the table to to help another individual out right

so i mean i feel like there's probably a million different ways you can say it and i am going to put in the description

um some of the um some of the resources that i looked at you know i looked up like i listened to

like how to be a trans ally how to be a ally like um for

for people of color how to be an ally for um people who are differently abled you know there's all these sorts of

different ways and different opportunities for us to be allies um

in um in in our work so even if like just because i'm a trans person doesn't mean that i don't get to work at trying to be

an ally because there are plenty of other people that are having a different experience than mine and there are

moments in my life when i maybe have some sort of power or influence that could be beneficial

and so being able to intentionally kind of um you know use that or leverage that in a way to

help my friend or the person that i'm an allyship with um hopefully have a better

experience in some way so um i have a list of yeah i have a list of a

few um and i i think it'd be great if i bring them up and we can talk about them too um

uh but the first one is really to listen um that was one thing that was really

common in all of these is just to to like listen to um the people who are part of that

community so if you're looking to be an lgbtq ally than listening to listening

to lgbtq folks and really listening to them um oftentimes

uh oftentimes i think there are moments when people may share with us their

experience and we might feel like they're not um sharing it in a way that's

i don't know suitable or comfortable for us um and we sometimes feel like we need to

tell them that or whatever and i think what we really need to be able to do is just listen and i think sometimes

that's that's a huge thing if somebody's willing to talk with you about that or share that with you um i think it's really important just to

be able to hold that space with that individual you know i think listening is a hard thing for a lot of

people myself included and i think we also have to um

limit ourselves to wanting to respond by trying to fix their problem or trying to out problem that problem or

problem their situation because i run into that a lot even just in regular conversation

um i feel like people don't hear me because they're too busy trying to tell me how much more serious their situation

is or how much more fun their situation is or or how i should just do this or that and just be done with it

rather than listening to what i have to say so i think that's that's a good part of listening is our posture and to be

still and only speak when the opportunity is is right yeah yeah yeah i think you know

listening and there's lots of i think it's kind of it seems like kind of

um easy simple um but like you say it can be it can be difficult um to

sometimes you know we can like kind of interrupt because we're either excited or we're hearing

something new um i think oftentimes it can come off as like we know better

or we know this um and then we kind of almost talk over or take it away from that person yeah

they're there sometimes so i try to be real conscious of that yeah and i think that you've also

modeled it um well um on the show often times when we've talked about things

that might be new or um initially you might not like quite get it or you want to talk you know what

i mean and i've seen you plenty of times just kind of like yeah and listen and then kind of think about

it um a little bit more um before talking about it or whatever um

yeah i just i try to but i think it's a good practice for all of us to just kind of keep that in the forefront of our mind when we're having conversations so

anyway go ahead and interrupt you but but listening i thought was a good good place to start oh no you didn't

interrupt me at all yeah so i think listening can be really important and it's something that's it's constant and

and ever present um uh the second and this isn't necessarily

in any particular order but it's to get educated um there are and this is something we

talked a lot about on last week's episode on lgbtq i i a

plus kind of um uh conversation about what how the what those identities mean and and

those sorts of things which was very brief um but to to kind of do some um

research and some education um and you know we do live in a time where there is a lot of information out there

for us to access and so we can google and learn a lot about different communities

and one of the things that um about googling it can feel a little overwhelming or

what um information because you can kind of get you know

everything and such vastly different perspectives on the same thing and so

i think it's important in kind of discerning what information

i guess works is just kind of looking at who is the person telling us um about these things and and ensuring

that these individuals are part of um part of the community that we are

seeking or working to be an ally for um i think one of the things that's also

important in kind of identifying that it's like okay i want to be a um

advocate to the lgbtq community you can very easily just go to let's say white lgbtq folks

and ask them or listen to their videos and those sorts of things but there's something

more to be learned potentially from folks who from a person of color who is is talking about allyship or somebody

who is you know again different from kind of um your experience in in in different

ways so i think those are things to often kind of think about is like intersectionality there are often many

things that are happening all at once um and so kind of keeping that in mind so like when i

was looking at um allyship videos and preparing to talk about this you know i was really looking

at who um who's speaking like who's the one and i listened to like assists

um assists black woman talk about allyship that was kind of centered around race

but she also spoke to the idea that you know that of her space of privilege as

being cisgendered she's not you know part of the lgbtq community so that's where she can

you know um that's where she can potentially be an ally um and so um that's kind of what i'm does that all

make sense yeah it all made sense awesome it can be overwhelming though just an fy

an fyi because you know if i if i'm thinking like in our relationship

so i want definitely want to be an ally for you

um and i want to be an ally for anyone who uh you would want to engage with right

this may or may not be something that i pursue and you know who knows what what tomorrow holds

so to think okay we'll just be in understanding how to be an ally to you

isn't isn't enough i have to stand be an ally to other other types of of

lgbtq people and i'm like okay so that's for me it's a little overwhelming um but i think here is a

good place for me to start right and then come on those other when those avenues present themselves

definitely so because for me you can tell you said i would have put everybody under the same banner so that's a good

note i thought that you had to consider all the other perspectives involved so

i appreciate that good morning charlie uh thanks for joining us this morning and saying hello in the comments um if

you are watching us live we'd love to hear from you in the comments so feel free to chime in with questions comments uh

thoughts that sort of thing and just to speak more on the educated part as well too is like it can be kind of burdens

like so um to just go to like one person or to like like you and i are in relationship

with one another and so i think it can feel really easy just to come to me and ask me

what do you think what does that mean or like whatever but that can be a lot that

can take a lot of energy from me or kind of burden me to do that all the time um

so there's that personal burden of like feeling like i'm having to speak for

this large community that i barely know my own experience for um so there's kind

of that overwhelming and sometimes like i'm just living my life and maybe i had a hard day being trans because somebody

called me some horrible name or i was struggling with you know like there you

don't know what's going on in my life and so sometimes to like take the moment to talk about something like that can be

can be difficult so i think it's important to not burden like the people that we are working to be allies with

and so um you know getting educated is is really really important

all right that's awesome in that aspect too i don't sorry that i'm dog sitting and

i like to be really horrible um there's a lot of activity because it's time for school in the morning

uh but it's all good yeah i might try to let her out again but i think she's gonna be

wild can you hold the conversation for a second well give me another topic first well

yeah so we talked about like getting educated um the other aspect is getting involved i mean ah okay

yeah so involvement you know involvement has a lot of facets i think that we all need

to consider because as much as we want to be an ally for someone

we need to be aware also of our own comfortability and our own

you know i don't want to get in over my head and cause more harm than good so to come in and try to be an ally for

someone in a space that would be out of my comfort zone may not be very helpful

so just to be aware of that but to come alongside someone and

to the point where you're both comfortable i think is a a good space to be in education can take you so far a lot of

that has to come with vulnerability but i think having that comfort zone is

helpful so i think there is a space for that

for our individual cursor i did not i know you didn't i know i was talking about what you said but being my best

ally i need to stay in a space that i'm comfortable in because if we're both feeling that

vulnerability or that outsideness um then i could potentially do more harm

than good so that's kind of where i was talking yeah i mean and part of that i think is

managing that probably not always with with us like with me right like that

might be some discomfort or whatever that you can you can you know process or work through

uh not with me um you know sometimes i think you and i we have a very unique relationship like we're able to kind of

like do that um but um but yeah i mean i think

part of trying not to burden the other with those sorts of emotions or feelings or whatever

um can just be a way again of trying to be an ally with someone um

one of the i still wouldn't want to accept an invitation with you to go someplace where i'm not myself

comfortable that's what i'm talking about so i wouldn't want because then i would be burdening you not with just my

own discomfort but for sure that but we both be in this space where we're both like okay we're

what are we doing here what are we whatever maybe in that negative space that we shouldn't be in but we may

because we all have those areas where we're not comfortable so for me to be uncomfortable in a situation i want

to go with you where you're confident enough that you can bring me with you and be my ally i want to go with you or

to be bring you in places where i can certainly be your ally and feel confident because i think if i don't

feel confident in that space i don't have any influence well and how do you gain how do you gain confidence or comfort you you have to do

it in baby steps i think you know go into some of these spaces

where we can learn how to be more comfortable together so that the crowd around us doesn't matter so much

and then use our influence yeah i mean i think if i think the other aspect that is like if you like after we

listen and we get educated we educate ourselves outside of those settings you know um we read about things i think

for me that can make build confidence around me i think one of the things i didn't bring up too is watch movies and

films about us that we have written and and act in you know what i mean i think for me i get a lot of um

a lot from that even as a trans person i watched um the good doctor and there was

a a trans uh kid who was in that show and was one of the patients and just hearing

like the there was a grandma and there was parents and there was the medical community uh medical folks and

you know there was all these different experiences and emotions and feelings and the trans and the

the young girl as well and her experience as well and you kind of get a little bit of insight into

kind of all the different points of view so i think often times documentaries or or even some tv shows

that cover the issue well can be ways to kind of get a little bit more insight too

the reason why i kept asking about like the because i think that we should um and good morning to you too sarah i want to

say good morning to you before we go morning sarah um one of the actually one of the the

things uh number seven on the list was to welcome discomfort so i think that

um i think that you know like as allies we we need to be willing to be uncomfortable because

the people that we're being an ally for they don't get they don't get to take time to be comfortable

you know they have to go through that thing you know usually 24 7.

so they don't get many places or that much opportunity to be comfortable in a

lot of ways being comfortable is a privilege it's a you know it comes from

not all folks have that opportunity for a number of different reasons to kind of have that escape if you will from that

discomfort so i think i think it's important to understand discomfort from like safety

or um and to be mindful of how you are in this space you know are you so

uncomfortable that it's it's not cute then that's probably like a good thing

to be like yeah no but if you're gonna be a little uncomfortable maybe you should think about that and i think i

think you should lean into that a little bit i mean i think a lot of growth a lot of growth is is really uncomfortable

we've you know we've had to lean into a lot of uh discomfort

yeah if you will what do you say or i would say yes but i think again there's there's levels of that i

certainly wouldn't choose a a big platform where i'm already uncomfortable to

take someone that i know would be uncomfortable in there and try to be their ally i mean but i would certainly

go to a normal space like a grocery store or a movie theater or a restaurant

and for sure be someone's ally so i think there's some clarification there on what that discomfort looks like

i'm not one to throw myself into the uh den of lions

without being prepared and i certainly wouldn't bring someone with me to try to protect them if i wasn't comfortable

being ready myself so i wouldn't be a good ally if i'd if i

did that yeah um good morning zara um i

yeah but i think that with that what that also brings up too is that idea of like um platform like you're not speaking for

you're not um taking up space potentially that those individuals

um need to be taking space up in that particular event it's hard when we're not talking about like a specific

like event or activity but um but i think it's also really important to be mindful about um about this space too

like um i remember when i first moved to chicago one of the reasons that drew me to chicago was that i wanted to be in a

city where there was more people that were different than me because it felt like back home

in idaho there was people who looked a lot more like i did and so pardon me wanted to go and

experience people that were different than myself um and one of the things that i learned and

this was like you know that's a very comes from a place of privilege its own privilege and kind of

misguidedness but like i just thought you know i just thought i could just go

and show up in people's space and and just be like hi like i wanna you know whatever and and i learned real

quick that there were some spaces that were not appropriate for me you know to just show

up in i think it's important there are spaces that are you know

um are sacred or safe fur for folks and to be mindful about the spaces that i go

into so i often times now i wait for an invitation you know i wait to be invited into a space that

might be of full of people of of of a different experience than my own

um but i know for a long time because i wanted to i wanted to be a better person or i real i could i could understand

that like i was having a different experience because i was mostly around white people

that i was having a different you know what i mean i was just having i could have a different experience with people who are different

than me um and so kind of in some ways you know it can come from this good place but but the

impact of that is not is not good because being on the other side of that can often feel

um harmful um and so so so that's something that

i've you know i've stepped on lots of lots of landmines and i have not been a

great ally often um but i think that's the other thing is um about allyship that's also on the

list is to learn from our mistakes you know um and and thankfully

i was gifted enough to have people in my life who were able to um point that out to me and

share that with me and um you know so that i could have that ex because so that i could have that

experience so that i could recognize and understand how i'm actually impacting

um a space just by showing up in it um and not necessarily

like me personally but like what i represent because of the way that i look

um that that you know like i bring a lot of things with me and some oftentimes you

know i look like the oppressor you know i'm i look like the

the bad person if you will in some people's uh experience um so i think

those are things to be really mindful of it's a lot of pressure

it is but i think it you know i you know like and like i said you know like

there are certain things that i don't have to worry about um given my own experience and so if i need

to be a little bit uncomfortable with it then like i said like people

don't always get to you know avoid being uncomfortable um because of

their their gender or their race or you know there are a lot of things that can sometimes separate us from a group

um and make us feel vulnerable and and or oppress us um

and those sorts of things i i agree with you discomfort is good but i think there's some wisdom that has

to go in all this and putting everyone else's um i don't know

um feeling above my own is okay to a point but there comes a point where i have to

be who i am it's not what we're talking about we need the freedom to be who we are um and i want to be who i am just as

much as someone else wants to be who they are and you know i don't see things the same

way that most people see them um so it's it's it's it's challenging for

me sometimes yeah well i mean i think the biggest thing about being an ally is making it not about you

i hear that but when i'm walking into a space it's obviously they're not on the same page because

it's all about them because if i come in and they think i'm an oppressor without even knowing my name that is not

the same type of spirit that i'm asked to come in with yeah i think it's just i've learned that it's

been helpful for me to to to have an understanding of what it

is that i represent or that i may represent to somebody you know i have worked in fields where i've like needed

to work with it is it is a lot

more challenging to connect with people that are different than yourself especially in like a

like you just met kind of situation like it's really hard to get deep and to get

quick fast so i've always been kind of in the service like service oriented work um where you know

providing hiv care in a lot of ways um for you know different groups of people and i learned very quick how

you know um how i wasn't the best person oftentimes to work in certain settings

because of what i represented and what i looked like and it didn't necessarily mean i couldn't do the work and it

didn't necessarily mean that i didn't still do it but i had to be really mindful about

how the other person might be experiencing me and are there ways that

and to understand that it might take a little bit more time for for them to feel safe or comfortable

with me or to be able to trust me um and so i think i think that's what i mean when i say

like trying not to make it all about me it's like there i was uncomfortable a good portion of my

of of often like there were spaces i i was in

that i was uncomfortable but i needed to manage that and work through that and and um in order

to continue to really develop relationships that have with people who have different

experiences than me and my life and i feel like my ex perception and perspective is so much

more richer um because i have been gifted people who have been

who have been in relationship with me in so many different ways who are different from myself but yeah it's often been

really uncomfortable and i've often taken a lot of things personal and

there's still so much so much so much so much i need to learn and come to understand and that's

a lot of why i'm in relationship with you in the way that i am you know is is to um because in a lot of

ways you represent um you represent my oppressor you represent the people who

who harm me even as early as yesterday you know so

um and and i i think that's interesting that we can all be bumped into a category

just because i wear the name of of christian that i'm lumped into this category

without someone getting even an opportunity to know me and i understand

the negative okay well my last engagement with the christian was thus and so

um but there's no space for someone who doesn't fit that model of what they think it is

uh to make an entrance into their life than show them any kind of of allyship or love or

or relationship at all and it's unfortunate and that's one of the reasons i think

that we have come together was for to [Music] i think overcome some of these

ways of thinking that not everyone just because they have some of the same identity markers are the same

yeah i just think i just think it's important to kind of keep that in mind if you really want to if you really want

people to have the experience of you that you're wanting to to have i think that's something that to

kind of be aware of like and it's important to not like make assumptions either because not everybody is going to

have that experience of you or to make that assumption of you but it's important to

have some sort of cultural humility when it comes to being in relationship

with people who are differently cultured from a different culture

you know oftentimes one of the things that i have to try not to do is to assume

bad intentions you know and and um because they're i mean

we might make this look easy but it hasn't been on my end

you know i've had a very difficult time trusting you and

um i still have this fear in the same way that you do that something's gonna be

said or something's gonna happen and we're done you know and i have to really work hard

to remind myself that um you're not one of those people

you know um and and i have to just constantly i and i'm being just

very frank with you like honest with you because i think i appreciate that is that i can't work with it if you're not

honest right any and this isn't anything i haven't ever i think shared with you before

but um it's it's been very challenging and it's caused me to take space and time from you

um in order to really kind of work through some of that like what's going on with this for me like you know you

you know she's not like that you know um but then there are certain things that

are said or certain you know that are kind of triggers or you know i i have trauma responses because i have

spiritual trauma i experienced some really deep and severe spiritual trauma

and so there are things that can happen and things that can be said that just take

me to that place that i have no control over and it might cause me to it might cause me to like raise my voice

it might cause me to cuss it might cause me to like um cower in myself it might cause me to be

quiet it might cause me to leave you know and and sometimes you know how

trauma works sometimes you don't even know why or how you just know something's happening and

that can be very exhausting and taxing you know and and you know those are some big things but there also are like a lot

of little things that can kind of you know like tap on you all day and and those

are the things i think that can really exhaust people and causes they're called microaggressions you know and oftentimes

they're not intentional but they're experienced as these aggressions or these attacks or these

poking if you will or whatever um and you know that can be very um

distressing and very um difficult for you to be able to

clearly communicate what's going on with you clearly understand what's going on with you for

you to find a place to feel safe in because you're so vulnerable you know

what i mean or you're feeling vulnerable all the time and so i may think i and though and that's what we're doing

that's what we're doing when we're working with folks as an ally potentially they're

experiencing that all the time and so if we're aware of that and we're not able

to personal like we don't personal take that personal i think we're just going to be much better at

being an ally when we can do that you know like um i can hear people say things about white

people and i don't have to take that personal you know what i mean like when when you

know i know a lot of white people want to get upset when blah blah blah and i was like no like i don't have to

i can understand where that comes from as much as i can understand um and i also know

that i'm i'm i'm doing things different like i'm doing the work to try not

to continue um that uh cycle or pattern of harm you know and

and that's where i have to know and i have to work

and trust in myself that's a lot of pressure in order to as people are coming at me telling me

and i also still have to remain open and i have to listen and i have to continue

to educate myself um on these things because it's constantly

do you feel like that takes away from who you are no so much better

if you're constantly on pins and needles or actually that's trying to

accommodate whatever experience they're having in this moment in the middle of you trying to experience whatever you're experiencing

my gosh that's a lot of hard work no i'm not a lot of emotional hard work

so what i'm saying is they're having that experience i'm not having like i'm not on pins and needles because

like i'm not tiptoeing i'm being mindful and i'm being aware

but i'm not necessarily like that's a whole nother level of of problem can you like being on the other end of that is

not pleasant like being around somebody who's tiptoeing around you that's not an

authentic experience that's not a truth i know i've experienced that so that's not what i'm saying is that um

is and again it's something that happens and something that we've gotten better at the more we've spent time with get

together the more we've had other experiences outside of just one another too

um to kind of really help help us um have a more comfortable

relationship with one another yeah absolutely yeah absolutely

um so i think some of like some of the the more like i think some of the things

that are often uh brought up especially around like transness is misgendering

um and i know that there can be a lot of anxiety for folks who are not trans unlike

using the right pronouns or the right name or not fully understanding those things and i think the thing that's

always been most important for me is to know that like the person like sees me as a trans person like

they're okay with the fact that i'm trans and i know that and so then if they misgender me or whatever like

that's gonna happen i've misgendered myself you know i've been on camera

and i've misgendered myself you know because there's programming in us right there's

programming in us if we've had relationships with someone it's so easy especially when we're comfortable for us

just to kick back into just into that mode that we've always been in and so we often have to like put

it in the forefront in order to like you know to be good at it so i mean

i so i think if you do make a mistake you just acknowledge it quick fix it

quick and then kind of move on don't try not to make a big deal of it especially if you're like in um

if you're like in a public setting yeah like with with a group of people you might say you like you might see you

might maybe use my old name or maybe you misgendered me you could say i'm sorry bonnie you know and like not make a big

deal of it um and then if you were concerned that i was hurt by that or you were feeling some sort of way you

could check in with me when it's just like the two of us um but i think

yeah so that's something that i think would be important is not to make it bigger than it needs to be because then

it becomes about you um and not about that person um so but i think most trans people are pretty

understanding if if they know that you support them right i know i have a

harder time when or i even had a harder time with you

when i what i didn't really believe you were okay with me you know what i mean like we went through that for a while um

and in the beginning i took a personal i was like maybe she doesn't really maybe she really doesn't

support me you know um and so it took me a little while to trust that

if you if that happens it's not because you don't love me or you think i'm a sinner

or you think i'm going to hell or and you love me anyway you know it's just it's just like that's how your

brain works and you're working on changing it and now it's it's very rarely a thing

anymore um than what it used to you know what i mean so um

so yeah um

and rohina is giving thumbs up and um

and very good good morning to you as well or good evening yes wherever you are

yeah i mean even just in like yeah yeah it's a different time everywhere whether

you're watching live or you're you're listening to this um

later on um thanks uh for the compliment on my earring so

not to get too um too off base we're actually like right around like the 45

minute mark um did we even get through our whole list well you know i i think the other thing

that i just wanted to i mean there are lots of other things we can do one of the things that i think that's helpful especially when it comes to pronouns is

that when i'm not with you you call me still by bonnie and she pronouns and i know

that you do that but i think those are ways that you can advocate for a person's identity like when they're not

in the room you know um so i think those are other ways to not only practice but also then to

you know to um speak up for people and that that and i think if you have a relationship with

the people right probably yeah i mean i think life's like the big thing if you're in a work environment

it's still important that you use the person's pronouns and names always always um always um and i know that

sometimes it can be difficult when you have life or history with someone prior to their transition like you and i do

and i'll often sometimes when i'm going to talk about a past experience sometimes it's hard for me to feel like

oh and bonnie did this or whatever and it was like but you know it's like so like yeah i understand that um because

it can be a little bit for me as well but i think it's just about you know like continuing to um

yep just continuing to kind of like you know go through that go through that process um

some of the other things um is uh is to stay engaged with the person

and stay engaged with education and involvement um the show up um i think

that can be a big thing is showing up for the individuals whether it's showing up for important life events for them or

it's showing up at the ballot it's showing up at a rally um you know i went

to a trans rally yesterday here in idaho because they were they were they're passed a law in the

house it did get stopped in the senate thankfully to make it illegal to be trans and a youth in the state of idaho

and doctors and parents of trans youth could be sentenced and put in jail

for um up to life in prison if they you know had a trans kid

and that they also weren't allowed to take their child into another state either for health care and so

um and i went to a rally and it was mostly you know people like myself you know

where are where are the allies you know and so i think those are ways that we can kind of show up to

when we're voting against you know and when there's anti-trans bills in that

are coming up to law or um those sorts of things so it can be politically but it also could just be

showing up in people's lives um right with things that are important to them

um checking in on folks when things are when there's lots of things happening in the news

i remember when the pulse shooting happened in orlando and that happened in florida and i didn't know anybody but i

know as a lgbtq person i felt really vulnerable and very hurt like i

was impacted by that and i remember feeling a little like why didn't my mom call and

check in on me you know so i mean i think there are ways that like allies we can kind of be thinking of that sort of

stuff and some of us would like to be checked in on other as others of us wouldn't but i think those are the

things of just kind of really being present and mindful and aware as a spiritual person you know praying

yeah praying about it um just discerning you know all that sort of stuff like that you know some of the other things

you could do is as if you're in a position to donate or volunteer you know those are also great ways to contribute

um to communities that are different than yourself and or you know potentially

learn from them if it's appropriate um do you have any other questions about

no i don't think so i thought we had a pretty full conversation about the topics that we hit so so yeah i'm good yeah i mean i think

it's challenging it can be challenging talking about ally ship um because it can go in so many different

ways and there's definitely a lot of like um nuance if you will

um i think that falls into the expectation you know what it what do people expect

allyship for themselves to look like from the people around them um because we want to be careful not to

put expectations on people um when they're also dealing with their own uh discomforts

and i think sometimes that's that's the case while i expected this or that from you to show that you're my ally and i don't

think that's a fair position either i think allyship is something that we move forward in

as we just as we desire to learn more about other people or to be a part of

people's lives and then we give and continue to give and to a place of

vulnerability i think to a point um so that we can become an ally for someone so there's just so many sides of

the coin um on on all these things and the more we think about it we'll find probably ten more sides of the coin um but yeah i

think we've had a good full conversation um hit a lot of points

yeah i would just challenge you a little bit on that like i think that like and

it just like expecting other people

like putting i don't know i think there's there's a difference between like i think if you're putting if you're

wanting to do the work to be an ally then i think you have to be willing to be on the other end of that and to to

like not expect more from somebody than what they can

give and especially when we're talking about allyship and to me ally is an action you

are choosing to do this so i think that's something

i don't know i i think sometimes we have to i think to expect

sometimes i feel like it's really easy for and i won't put this on you for for me to put my

feelings or my discomfort or whatever first

and i really have to like examine that and and look at that for myself to really see

is it discomfort is it um is it unhealthy is it toxic you know

those are different things and so um that's the only thing that kind of came to mind when you when um

yeah and saying and saying that it's almost like saying oh well

you can tell me that but don't don't raise your voice when you say to me or you should you should use these words

because it would be heard better i think as a person who's not part of that community i think it's important for us

not to tell them that however it might be mind helpful for us to think about that

when we're working with other folks too i agree i just don't think that it's right for us to put expectations on

other people who have said you know what i want to become an ally i want to move towards

this direction and then have an expectation of what that looks like for them i i don't think that's right it wouldn't

be right for me to put that on you it wouldn't be right for you to put that on me um you know we want to be allies we're

choosing to be in relationship together and to love one another for me just to expect a certain level of anything from

you um that you maybe didn't want to give or maybe even didn't consider giving i think is inappropriate

um that doesn't mean you're not my ally do you know what i'm saying the same thing for for for you now if we can talk

through some things and we've made some decisions together this is the things that we're going to be doing for one another and then some things just come

automatically like holding space for one another uh just because of of um the

relationship that we have but but i think we need to be real careful that okay you've decided to be my ally so because you're my ally i need you to be

doing this this this and this i don't think that's reasonable

does that make sense not that you would ever do that because you've never done that to me i'm just saying i wanna i i just think that's

something that we need to consider when we're talking to people about being an ally or

having someone that they could recognize as their ally that that doesn't come with um

things that we expect of them or guidelines that we expect them to follow be to be our ally

i'm yeah i'd yeah would you thank you i would just think on that some more

okay um i will it's okay for me to put expectations on you to be my ally

i think it's probably yeah i mean i need to trust

that if you say that if i do these things that i'm being an ally than you then that's that's

important to me like if you're telling me how i can be an ally to you

i that's what i want to do so so i don't know what if it but what if it

um puts you in a space where it compromises who you are

i don't yeah maybe maybe it you know it depends

on the situation but maybe i need to need to take one for the team

maybe i need to take one for the team or figure out how i can and really ask myself

am i really willing to be an ally yeah i think that's some good things to

consider awesome well sorry

just random thoughts i think that if we're not honest with one another and share our thoughts with one another then it leads us in deficit and i don't want

to do that because i love you yes and yeah

yes anyway we could talk about this for like forever um and i'm sure it'll come up

plenty of times in the future but thanks everyone for joining us this evening this morning

um wherever you're um coming in contact with us we are glad you are here um we'd

love to hear from you about um your thoughts on allyship and how one could be

an ally um if you have any feedback on our conversation today also i'll put some

links in the description from some of the things that i checked out that you might might be good places to check out

from as well i wanted to give a shout out to bob kaiser who is a new patreon for um for a queer

chaplain um and i also wanted to thank our other um our other

patreon members uh casey mark todd jonathan

gabriel jeff jeffrey violet and joey thank you all for your monthly contributions to queer chaplain

productions um to put on um you know to do splintered grace as well as a number

of other um other things so join us next week um we will be here

same time um the time to with the time change and everything else it's 8 a.m

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