Splintered Grace 💠

How To Be An Ally

March 17, 2022 Bonnie Violet & Tina Frank Season 4 Episode 2
Splintered Grace 💠
How To Be An Ally
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Show Notes Transcript

Bonnie Violet discusses with Tina Frank on what Allyship is and how one could be an ally.

Referenced in video
10 Things Allies Can Do http://www.ywcahbg.org/sites/default/files/manager/10%20Things%20Allies%20Can%20Do.pdf
5 Tips to Be An Ally - Chescaleigh - https://youtu.be/_dg86g-QlM0
How to be a better Ally - LifeHacker - https://youtu.be/T3Nh55sSgewow
How to be an Ally - Buzzfeed - https://youtu.be/u5MOJBflMgw

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This season we continue to push the depths of our relationship even further. Tackling the difficult conversations that we fear may separate us.

Tina, a conservative christian woman and Bonnie Violet, a trans gender queer drag queen have an anti-cancel culture conversation. While many family members are choosing to no longer speak, we have chosen to sit at the table and engage in difficult conversation to find peace and restoration.

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hey everybody good morning welcome to season four episode two of splintered grace today we're going to be talking


about allyship but just a quick reminder of who i am my name is tina frank i'm


one of the co-hosts of splintered grace and i am a conservative mature christian who follows the teachings of jesus


christ and i am bonnie violet i am a trans femme genderqueer spiritual drag artist


identity doula and digital chaplain excited to be here that's awesome you know while many


family members are having and choosing to be


i don't know at large we're choosing to speak on a regular basis we have chosen this yeah um


you said what i say yeah that's okay um either way um you know we get


together to have a conversation um in order to try to restore our our restore our relationship um


this uh is brought to you by a queer chaplain productions and each week we go live for


our vodcast audience on facebook youtube and twitch and you can always listen to


our episode afterwards uh wherever you listen to podcasts yeah so how's it going sorry about that


it's going pretty good it's still early here i'm still drinking my coffee so yeah yeah no it's all good it's all good


scripts are hard to get used to it so it's so easy to want to go off of it and then yeah


it's all good anyways that's awesome it happens um good morning how are you doing good


morning to you too i'm doing good i'm in boise idaho still or again i think i was


oh i wasn't here last week last week and we didn't say this but last week i was actually in arizona with you i was just


in the other room yeah yeah yeah i mean it was nice having you here


yeah it was nice to be there um i know it's like uh we we were gonna try to do it to where we were like sitting side by


side and we had some tech issues where it was just like we got to keep it the way we know it


yeah yeah i'm the weakest link in all that just so everybody knows no no it's


like it gets complicated i get comfortable enough to where like i know what needs to be what and then i can


feel secure but to switch that up at all i get a little wonky


yeah that's funny well so today we decided to talk a little bit about allyship last week we went into some detail on


some of the lgbt community things to help most folks that i know probably on


what all that means and how to be respectful and all that so um bonnie what would you think is the


first thing we have to i don't know what's the first thing that needs to happen to start us on that partnership of


allyship okay yeah yeah um so i think yeah i think the big part is is like what does it mean to like to be an ally like what


is an ally um and i think like i did a lot of research myself um on kind of


figuring out how is the best way to talk about you know being an ally you know um


you know like as you know like as a trans person people who are not


trans um could potentially be allies for me um or oftentimes i work at trying to


be an ally for folks who are not like myself so maybe folks who are of people


individuals so people who are of color um people who are um differently abled you know there are


plenty of uh people in the world like and there's different moments in my life when i have


a little bit more privilege or power in a particular situation or i have


a different or better experience with something and um so so in that in that sense that would


put me in a position to be an ally you know i know sometimes we use the word privilege often um which i know can be a


hard word stop go lay down i'm glad i'm not the only one with


extras in that yeah i don't know what her deal is so um


but yeah so allyship is i mean it can be list a lot of different ways but basically it's like you have some form


of privilege um that that can afford but yeah it just i don't know if i'm trying to think the


best way to to describe it now i'm kind of getting in my head about it


well one of the thoughts i had was that i think the first step for anyone is to choose you know we need to choose okay i


want to i want to be an ally to this person i want to be in relationship with this person i want to so and i think


that's something that you and i have done we have chosen to not only be in relationship but to be aligned with one


another and to be allies to one another and a lot of people don't choose that


and doesn't then therefore um well we all know the rest of the story


yeah one of the um one of the things where i was looking at um they stated an ally is someone who


this had a lot more like big words in it that i thought you know i think one of the time things in in talking with


allyship or working with different people language becomes i think really important and


i think that um for me i'm often trying to navigate how best i can speak to you


and your audience um in a way that could be could be heard um and so um


i'm trying to think of how to um say this different but basically it's it's just the idea that you might be in a


position to where you might be able to help somebody who's different um from yourself um or you're in a


position to maybe yeah you're in a position to help them right or assist or go along with them in their journey


exactly what i think this podcast is all about in a lot of ways yeah yeah


so you think the ally ship could be with like people too i mean i feel like i'm in


people that are similar or like or walk in the same uh journey you think they


can be allies also well i think i think when we're talking about allyship in


this in this format or in this way you know we are specifically talking about


um you have like like that there is some sort of difference between us that sets


us apart typically usually socially or in some sort of power dynamic


um so i i don't think that there's um you know there's there's not that space


of um equal like equal experience um in that moment or in that particular


relationship so does that answer your question


a little bit yeah it does for this for this platform yeah


i mean otherwise we're just like pals or we're buddies or we're friends like what's um i think an ally is you have something


to bring to the table to to help another individual out right


so i mean i feel like there's probably a million different ways you can say it and i am going to put in the description


um some of the um some of the resources that i looked at you know i looked up like i listened to


like how to be a trans ally how to be a ally like um for


for people of color how to be an ally for um people who are differently abled you know there's all these sorts of


different ways and different opportunities for us to be allies um


in um in in our work so even if like just because i'm a trans person doesn't mean that i don't get to work at trying to be


an ally because there are plenty of other people that are having a different experience than mine and there are


moments in my life when i maybe have some sort of power or influence that could be beneficial


and so being able to intentionally kind of um you know use that or leverage that in a way to


help my friend or the person that i'm an allyship with um hopefully have a better


experience in some way so um i have a list of yeah i have a list of a


few um and i i think it'd be great if i bring them up and we can talk about them too um


uh but the first one is really to listen um that was one thing that was really


common in all of these is just to to like listen to um the people who are part of that


community so if you're looking to be an lgbtq ally than listening to listening


to lgbtq folks and really listening to them um oftentimes


uh oftentimes i think there are moments when people may share with us their


experience and we might feel like they're not um sharing it in a way that's


i don't know suitable or comfortable for us um and we sometimes feel like we need to


tell them that or whatever and i think what we really need to be able to do is just listen and i think sometimes


that's that's a huge thing if somebody's willing to talk with you about that or share that with you um i think it's really important just to


be able to hold that space with that individual you know i think listening is a hard thing for a lot of


people myself included and i think we also have to um


limit ourselves to wanting to respond by trying to fix their problem or trying to out problem that problem or


problem their situation because i run into that a lot even just in regular conversation


um i feel like people don't hear me because they're too busy trying to tell me how much more serious their situation


is or how much more fun their situation is or or how i should just do this or that and just be done with it


rather than listening to what i have to say so i think that's that's a good part of listening is our posture and to be


still and only speak when the opportunity is is right yeah yeah yeah i think you know


listening and there's lots of i think it's kind of it seems like kind of


um easy simple um but like you say it can be it can be difficult um to


sometimes you know we can like kind of interrupt because we're either excited or we're hearing


something new um i think oftentimes it can come off as like we know better


or we know this um and then we kind of almost talk over or take it away from that person yeah


they're there sometimes so i try to be real conscious of that yeah and i think that you've also


modeled it um well um on the show often times when we've talked about things


that might be new or um initially you might not like quite get it or you want to talk you know what


i mean and i've seen you plenty of times just kind of like yeah and listen and then kind of think about


it um a little bit more um before talking about it or whatever um


yeah i just i try to but i think it's a good practice for all of us to just kind of keep that in the forefront of our mind when we're having conversations so


anyway go ahead and interrupt you but but listening i thought was a good good place to start oh no you didn't


interrupt me at all yeah so i think listening can be really important and it's something that's it's constant and


and ever present um uh the second and this isn't necessarily


in any particular order but it's to get educated um there are and this is something we


talked a lot about on last week's episode on lgbtq i i a


plus kind of um uh conversation about what how the what those identities mean and and


those sorts of things which was very brief um but to to kind of do some um


research and some education um and you know we do live in a time where there is a lot of information out there


for us to access and so we can google and learn a lot about different communities


and one of the things that um about googling it can feel a little overwhelming or


what um information because you can kind of get you know


everything and such vastly different perspectives on the same thing and so


i think it's important in kind of discerning what information


i guess works is just kind of looking at who is the person telling us um about these things and and ensuring


that these individuals are part of um part of the community that we are


seeking or working to be an ally for um i think one of the things that's also


important in kind of identifying that it's like okay i want to be a um


advocate to the lgbtq community you can very easily just go to let's say white lgbtq folks


and ask them or listen to their videos and those sorts of things but there's something


more to be learned potentially from folks who from a person of color who is is talking about allyship or somebody


who is you know again different from kind of um your experience in in in different


ways so i think those are things to often kind of think about is like intersectionality there are often many


things that are happening all at once um and so kind of keeping that in mind so like when i


was looking at um allyship videos and preparing to talk about this you know i was really looking


at who um who's speaking like who's the one and i listened to like assists


um assists black woman talk about allyship that was kind of centered around race


but she also spoke to the idea that you know that of her space of privilege as


being cisgendered she's not you know part of the lgbtq community so that's where she can


you know um that's where she can potentially be an ally um and so um that's kind of what i'm does that all


make sense yeah it all made sense awesome it can be overwhelming though just an fy


an fyi because you know if i if i'm thinking like in our relationship


so i want definitely want to be an ally for you


um and i want to be an ally for anyone who uh you would want to engage with right


this may or may not be something that i pursue and you know who knows what what tomorrow holds


so to think okay we'll just be in understanding how to be an ally to you


isn't isn't enough i have to stand be an ally to other other types of of


lgbtq people and i'm like okay so that's for me it's a little overwhelming um but i think here is a


good place for me to start right and then come on those other when those avenues present themselves


definitely so because for me you can tell you said i would have put everybody under the same banner so that's a good


note i thought that you had to consider all the other perspectives involved so


i appreciate that good morning charlie uh thanks for joining us this morning and saying hello in the comments um if


you are watching us live we'd love to hear from you in the comments so feel free to chime in with questions comments uh


thoughts that sort of thing and just to speak more on the educated part as well too is like it can be kind of burdens


like so um to just go to like one person or to like like you and i are in relationship


with one another and so i think it can feel really easy just to come to me and ask me


what do you think what does that mean or like whatever but that can be a lot that


can take a lot of energy from me or kind of burden me to do that all the time um


so there's that personal burden of like feeling like i'm having to speak for


this large community that i barely know my own experience for um so there's kind


of that overwhelming and sometimes like i'm just living my life and maybe i had a hard day being trans because somebody


called me some horrible name or i was struggling with you know like there you


don't know what's going on in my life and so sometimes to like take the moment to talk about something like that can be


can be difficult so i think it's important to not burden like the people that we are working to be allies with


and so um you know getting educated is is really really important


all right that's awesome in that aspect too i don't sorry that i'm dog sitting and


i like to be really horrible um there's a lot of activity because it's time for school in the morning


uh but it's all good yeah i might try to let her out again but i think she's gonna be


wild can you hold the conversation for a second well give me another topic first well


yeah so we talked about like getting educated um the other aspect is getting involved i mean ah okay


yeah so involvement you know involvement has a lot of facets i think that we all need


to consider because as much as we want to be an ally for someone


we need to be aware also of our own comfortability and our own


you know i don't want to get in over my head and cause more harm than good so to come in and try to be an ally for


someone in a space that would be out of my comfort zone may not be very helpful


so just to be aware of that but to come alongside someone and


to the point where you're both comfortable i think is a a good space to be in education can take you so far a lot of


that has to come with vulnerability but i think having that comfort zone is


helpful so i think there is a space for that


for our individual cursor i did not i know you didn't i know i was talking about what you said but being my best


ally i need to stay in a space that i'm comfortable in because if we're both feeling that


vulnerability or that outsideness um then i could potentially do more harm


than good so that's kind of where i was talking yeah i mean and part of that i think is


managing that probably not always with with us like with me right like that


might be some discomfort or whatever that you can you can you know process or work through


uh not with me um you know sometimes i think you and i we have a very unique relationship like we're able to kind of


like do that um but um but yeah i mean i think


part of trying not to burden the other with those sorts of emotions or feelings or whatever


um can just be a way again of trying to be an ally with someone um


one of the i still wouldn't want to accept an invitation with you to go someplace where i'm not myself


comfortable that's what i'm talking about so i wouldn't want because then i would be burdening you not with just my


own discomfort but for sure that but we both be in this space where we're both like okay we're


what are we doing here what are we whatever maybe in that negative space that we shouldn't be in but we may


because we all have those areas where we're not comfortable so for me to be uncomfortable in a situation i want


to go with you where you're confident enough that you can bring me with you and be my ally i want to go with you or


to be bring you in places where i can certainly be your ally and feel confident because i think if i don't


feel confident in that space i don't have any influence well and how do you gain how do you gain confidence or comfort you you have to do


it in baby steps i think you know go into some of these spaces


where we can learn how to be more comfortable together so that the crowd around us doesn't matter so much


and then use our influence yeah i mean i think if i think the other aspect that is like if you like after we


listen and we get educated we educate ourselves outside of those settings you know um we read about things i think


for me that can make build confidence around me i think one of the things i didn't bring up too is watch movies and


films about us that we have written and and act in you know what i mean i think for me i get a lot of um


a lot from that even as a trans person i watched um the good doctor and there was


a a trans uh kid who was in that show and was one of the patients and just hearing


like the there was a grandma and there was parents and there was the medical community uh medical folks and


you know there was all these different experiences and emotions and feelings and the trans and the


the young girl as well and her experience as well and you kind of get a little bit of insight into


kind of all the different points of view so i think often times documentaries or or even some tv shows


that cover the issue well can be ways to kind of get a little bit more insight too


the reason why i kept asking about like the because i think that we should um and good morning to you too sarah i want to


say good morning to you before we go morning sarah um one of the actually one of the the


things uh number seven on the list was to welcome discomfort so i think that


um i think that you know like as allies we we need to be willing to be uncomfortable because


the people that we're being an ally for they don't get they don't get to take time to be comfortable


you know they have to go through that thing you know usually 24 7.


so they don't get many places or that much opportunity to be comfortable in a


lot of ways being comfortable is a privilege it's a you know it comes from


not all folks have that opportunity for a number of different reasons to kind of have that escape if you will from that


discomfort so i think i think it's important to understand discomfort from like safety


or um and to be mindful of how you are in this space you know are you so


uncomfortable that it's it's not cute then that's probably like a good thing


to be like yeah no but if you're gonna be a little uncomfortable maybe you should think about that and i think i


think you should lean into that a little bit i mean i think a lot of growth a lot of growth is is really uncomfortable


we've you know we've had to lean into a lot of uh discomfort


yeah if you will what do you say or i would say yes but i think again there's there's levels of that i


certainly wouldn't choose a a big platform where i'm already uncomfortable to


take someone that i know would be uncomfortable in there and try to be their ally i mean but i would certainly


go to a normal space like a grocery store or a movie theater or a restaurant


and for sure be someone's ally so i think there's some clarification there on what that discomfort looks like


i'm not one to throw myself into the uh den of lions


without being prepared and i certainly wouldn't bring someone with me to try to protect them if i wasn't comfortable


being ready myself so i wouldn't be a good ally if i'd if i


did that yeah um good morning zara um i


yeah but i think that with that what that also brings up too is that idea of like um platform like you're not speaking for


you're not um taking up space potentially that those individuals


um need to be taking space up in that particular event it's hard when we're not talking about like a specific


like event or activity but um but i think it's also really important to be mindful about um about this space too


like um i remember when i first moved to chicago one of the reasons that drew me to chicago was that i wanted to be in a


city where there was more people that were different than me because it felt like back home


in idaho there was people who looked a lot more like i did and so pardon me wanted to go and


experience people that were different than myself um and one of the things that i learned and


this was like you know that's a very comes from a place of privilege its own privilege and kind of


misguidedness but like i just thought you know i just thought i could just go


and show up in people's space and and just be like hi like i wanna you know whatever and and i learned real


quick that there were some spaces that were not appropriate for me you know to just show


up in i think it's important there are spaces that are you know


um are sacred or safe fur for folks and to be mindful about the spaces that i go


into so i often times now i wait for an invitation you know i wait to be invited into a space that


might be of full of people of of of a different experience than my own


um but i know for a long time because i wanted to i wanted to be a better person or i real i could i could understand


that like i was having a different experience because i was mostly around white people


that i was having a different you know what i mean i was just having i could have a different experience with people who are different


than me um and so kind of in some ways you know it can come from this good place but but the


impact of that is not is not good because being on the other side of that can often feel


um harmful um and so so so that's something that


i've you know i've stepped on lots of lots of landmines and i have not been a


great ally often um but i think that's the other thing is um about allyship that's also on the


list is to learn from our mistakes you know um and and thankfully


i was gifted enough to have people in my life who were able to um point that out to me and


share that with me and um you know so that i could have that ex because so that i could have that


experience so that i could recognize and understand how i'm actually impacting


um a space just by showing up in it um and not necessarily


like me personally but like what i represent because of the way that i look


um that that you know like i bring a lot of things with me and some oftentimes you


know i look like the oppressor you know i'm i look like the


the bad person if you will in some people's uh experience um so i think


those are things to be really mindful of it's a lot of pressure


it is but i think it you know i you know like and like i said you know like


there are certain things that i don't have to worry about um given my own experience and so if i need


to be a little bit uncomfortable with it then like i said like people


don't always get to you know avoid being uncomfortable um because of


their their gender or their race or you know there are a lot of things that can sometimes separate us from a group


um and make us feel vulnerable and and or oppress us um


and those sorts of things i i agree with you discomfort is good but i think there's some wisdom that has


to go in all this and putting everyone else's um i don't know


um feeling above my own is okay to a point but there comes a point where i have to


be who i am it's not what we're talking about we need the freedom to be who we are um and i want to be who i am just as


much as someone else wants to be who they are and you know i don't see things the same


way that most people see them um so it's it's it's it's challenging for


me sometimes yeah well i mean i think the biggest thing about being an ally is making it not about you


i hear that but when i'm walking into a space it's obviously they're not on the same page because


it's all about them because if i come in and they think i'm an oppressor without even knowing my name that is not


the same type of spirit that i'm asked to come in with yeah i think it's just i've learned that it's


been helpful for me to to to have an understanding of what it


is that i represent or that i may represent to somebody you know i have worked in fields where i've like needed


to work with it is it is a lot


more challenging to connect with people that are different than yourself especially in like a


like you just met kind of situation like it's really hard to get deep and to get


quick fast so i've always been kind of in the service like service oriented work um where you know


providing hiv care in a lot of ways um for you know different groups of people and i learned very quick how


you know um how i wasn't the best person oftentimes to work in certain settings


because of what i represented and what i looked like and it didn't necessarily mean i couldn't do the work and it


didn't necessarily mean that i didn't still do it but i had to be really mindful about


how the other person might be experiencing me and are there ways that


and to understand that it might take a little bit more time for for them to feel safe or comfortable


with me or to be able to trust me um and so i think i think that's what i mean when i say


like trying not to make it all about me it's like there i was uncomfortable a good portion of my


of of often like there were spaces i i was in


that i was uncomfortable but i needed to manage that and work through that and and um in order


to continue to really develop relationships that have with people who have different


experiences than me and my life and i feel like my ex perception and perspective is so much


more richer um because i have been gifted people who have been


who have been in relationship with me in so many different ways who are different from myself but yeah it's often been


really uncomfortable and i've often taken a lot of things personal and


there's still so much so much so much so much i need to learn and come to understand and that's


a lot of why i'm in relationship with you in the way that i am you know is is to um because in a lot of


ways you represent um you represent my oppressor you represent the people who


who harm me even as early as yesterday you know so


um and and i i think that's interesting that we can all be bumped into a category


just because i wear the name of of christian that i'm lumped into this category


without someone getting even an opportunity to know me and i understand


the negative okay well my last engagement with the christian was thus and so


um but there's no space for someone who doesn't fit that model of what they think it is


uh to make an entrance into their life than show them any kind of of allyship or love or


or relationship at all and it's unfortunate and that's one of the reasons i think


that we have come together was for to [Music] i think overcome some of these


ways of thinking that not everyone just because they have some of the same identity markers are the same


yeah i just think i just think it's important to kind of keep that in mind if you really want to if you really want


people to have the experience of you that you're wanting to to have i think that's something that to


kind of be aware of like and it's important to not like make assumptions either because not everybody is going to


have that experience of you or to make that assumption of you but it's important to


have some sort of cultural humility when it comes to being in relationship


with people who are differently cultured from a different culture


you know oftentimes one of the things that i have to try not to do is to assume


bad intentions you know and and um because they're i mean


we might make this look easy but it hasn't been on my end


you know i've had a very difficult time trusting you and


um i still have this fear in the same way that you do that something's gonna be


said or something's gonna happen and we're done you know and i have to really work hard


to remind myself that um you're not one of those people


you know um and and i have to just constantly i and i'm being just


very frank with you like honest with you because i think i appreciate that is that i can't work with it if you're not


honest right any and this isn't anything i haven't ever i think shared with you before


but um it's it's been very challenging and it's caused me to take space and time from you


um in order to really kind of work through some of that like what's going on with this for me like you know you


you know she's not like that you know um but then there are certain things that


are said or certain you know that are kind of triggers or you know i i have trauma responses because i have


spiritual trauma i experienced some really deep and severe spiritual trauma


and so there are things that can happen and things that can be said that just take


me to that place that i have no control over and it might cause me to it might cause me to like raise my voice


it might cause me to cuss it might cause me to like um cower in myself it might cause me to be


quiet it might cause me to leave you know and and sometimes you know how


trauma works sometimes you don't even know why or how you just know something's happening and


that can be very exhausting and taxing you know and and you know those are some big things but there also are like a lot


of little things that can kind of you know like tap on you all day and and those


are the things i think that can really exhaust people and causes they're called microaggressions you know and oftentimes


they're not intentional but they're experienced as these aggressions or these attacks or these


poking if you will or whatever um and you know that can be very um


distressing and very um difficult for you to be able to


clearly communicate what's going on with you clearly understand what's going on with you for


you to find a place to feel safe in because you're so vulnerable you know


what i mean or you're feeling vulnerable all the time and so i may think i and though and that's what we're doing


that's what we're doing when we're working with folks as an ally potentially they're


experiencing that all the time and so if we're aware of that and we're not able


to personal like we don't personal take that personal i think we're just going to be much better at


being an ally when we can do that you know like um i can hear people say things about white


people and i don't have to take that personal you know what i mean like when when you


know i know a lot of white people want to get upset when blah blah blah and i was like no like i don't have to


i can understand where that comes from as much as i can understand um and i also know


that i'm i'm i'm doing things different like i'm doing the work to try not


to continue um that uh cycle or pattern of harm you know and


and that's where i have to know and i have to work


and trust in myself that's a lot of pressure in order to as people are coming at me telling me


and i also still have to remain open and i have to listen and i have to continue


to educate myself um on these things because it's constantly


do you feel like that takes away from who you are no so much better


if you're constantly on pins and needles or actually that's trying to


accommodate whatever experience they're having in this moment in the middle of you trying to experience whatever you're experiencing


my gosh that's a lot of hard work no i'm not a lot of emotional hard work


so what i'm saying is they're having that experience i'm not having like i'm not on pins and needles because


like i'm not tiptoeing i'm being mindful and i'm being aware


but i'm not necessarily like that's a whole nother level of of problem can you like being on the other end of that is


not pleasant like being around somebody who's tiptoeing around you that's not an


authentic experience that's not a truth i know i've experienced that so that's not what i'm saying is that um


is and again it's something that happens and something that we've gotten better at the more we've spent time with get


together the more we've had other experiences outside of just one another too


um to kind of really help help us um have a more comfortable


relationship with one another yeah absolutely yeah absolutely


um so i think some of like some of the the more like i think some of the things


that are often uh brought up especially around like transness is misgendering


um and i know that there can be a lot of anxiety for folks who are not trans unlike


using the right pronouns or the right name or not fully understanding those things and i think the thing that's


always been most important for me is to know that like the person like sees me as a trans person like


they're okay with the fact that i'm trans and i know that and so then if they misgender me or whatever like


that's gonna happen i've misgendered myself you know i've been on camera


and i've misgendered myself you know because there's programming in us right there's


programming in us if we've had relationships with someone it's so easy especially when we're comfortable for us


just to kick back into just into that mode that we've always been in and so we often have to like put


it in the forefront in order to like you know to be good at it so i mean


i so i think if you do make a mistake you just acknowledge it quick fix it


quick and then kind of move on don't try not to make a big deal of it especially if you're like in um


if you're like in a public setting yeah like with with a group of people you might say you like you might see you


might maybe use my old name or maybe you misgendered me you could say i'm sorry bonnie you know and like not make a big


deal of it um and then if you were concerned that i was hurt by that or you were feeling some sort of way you


could check in with me when it's just like the two of us um but i think


yeah so that's something that i think would be important is not to make it bigger than it needs to be because then


it becomes about you um and not about that person um so but i think most trans people are pretty


understanding if if they know that you support them right i know i have a


harder time when or i even had a harder time with you


when i what i didn't really believe you were okay with me you know what i mean like we went through that for a while um


and in the beginning i took a personal i was like maybe she doesn't really maybe she really doesn't


support me you know um and so it took me a little while to trust that


if you if that happens it's not because you don't love me or you think i'm a sinner


or you think i'm going to hell or and you love me anyway you know it's just it's just like that's how your


brain works and you're working on changing it and now it's it's very rarely a thing


anymore um than what it used to you know what i mean so um


so yeah um


and rohina is giving thumbs up and um


and very good good morning to you as well or good evening yes wherever you are


yeah i mean even just in like yeah yeah it's a different time everywhere whether


you're watching live or you're you're listening to this um


later on um thanks uh for the compliment on my earring so


not to get too um too off base we're actually like right around like the 45


minute mark um did we even get through our whole list well you know i i think the other thing


that i just wanted to i mean there are lots of other things we can do one of the things that i think that's helpful especially when it comes to pronouns is


that when i'm not with you you call me still by bonnie and she pronouns and i know


that you do that but i think those are ways that you can advocate for a person's identity like when they're not


in the room you know um so i think those are other ways to not only practice but also then to


you know to um speak up for people and that that and i think if you have a relationship with


the people right probably yeah i mean i think life's like the big thing if you're in a work environment


it's still important that you use the person's pronouns and names always always um always um and i know that


sometimes it can be difficult when you have life or history with someone prior to their transition like you and i do


and i'll often sometimes when i'm going to talk about a past experience sometimes it's hard for me to feel like


oh and bonnie did this or whatever and it was like but you know it's like so like yeah i understand that um because


it can be a little bit for me as well but i think it's just about you know like continuing to um


yep just continuing to kind of like you know go through that go through that process um


some of the other things um is uh is to stay engaged with the person


and stay engaged with education and involvement um the show up um i think


that can be a big thing is showing up for the individuals whether it's showing up for important life events for them or


it's showing up at the ballot it's showing up at a rally um you know i went


to a trans rally yesterday here in idaho because they were they were they're passed a law in the


house it did get stopped in the senate thankfully to make it illegal to be trans and a youth in the state of idaho


and doctors and parents of trans youth could be sentenced and put in jail


for um up to life in prison if they you know had a trans kid


and that they also weren't allowed to take their child into another state either for health care and so


um and i went to a rally and it was mostly you know people like myself you know


where are where are the allies you know and so i think those are ways that we can kind of show up to


when we're voting against you know and when there's anti-trans bills in that


are coming up to law or um those sorts of things so it can be politically but it also could just be


showing up in people's lives um right with things that are important to them


um checking in on folks when things are when there's lots of things happening in the news


i remember when the pulse shooting happened in orlando and that happened in florida and i didn't know anybody but i


know as a lgbtq person i felt really vulnerable and very hurt like i


was impacted by that and i remember feeling a little like why didn't my mom call and


check in on me you know so i mean i think there are ways that like allies we can kind of be thinking of that sort of


stuff and some of us would like to be checked in on other as others of us wouldn't but i think those are the


things of just kind of really being present and mindful and aware as a spiritual person you know praying


yeah praying about it um just discerning you know all that sort of stuff like that you know some of the other things


you could do is as if you're in a position to donate or volunteer you know those are also great ways to contribute


um to communities that are different than yourself and or you know potentially


learn from them if it's appropriate um do you have any other questions about


no i don't think so i thought we had a pretty full conversation about the topics that we hit so so yeah i'm good yeah i mean i think


it's challenging it can be challenging talking about ally ship um because it can go in so many different


ways and there's definitely a lot of like um nuance if you will


um i think that falls into the expectation you know what it what do people expect


allyship for themselves to look like from the people around them um because we want to be careful not to


put expectations on people um when they're also dealing with their own uh discomforts


and i think sometimes that's that's the case while i expected this or that from you to show that you're my ally and i don't


think that's a fair position either i think allyship is something that we move forward in


as we just as we desire to learn more about other people or to be a part of


people's lives and then we give and continue to give and to a place of


vulnerability i think to a point um so that we can become an ally for someone so there's just so many sides of


the coin um on on all these things and the more we think about it we'll find probably ten more sides of the coin um but yeah i


think we've had a good full conversation um hit a lot of points


yeah i would just challenge you a little bit on that like i think that like and


it just like expecting other people


like putting i don't know i think there's there's a difference between like i think if you're putting if you're


wanting to do the work to be an ally then i think you have to be willing to be on the other end of that and to to


like not expect more from somebody than what they can


give and especially when we're talking about allyship and to me ally is an action you


are choosing to do this so i think that's something


i don't know i i think sometimes we have to i think to expect


sometimes i feel like it's really easy for and i won't put this on you for for me to put my


feelings or my discomfort or whatever first


and i really have to like examine that and and look at that for myself to really see


is it discomfort is it um is it unhealthy is it toxic you know


those are different things and so um that's the only thing that kind of came to mind when you when um


yeah and saying and saying that it's almost like saying oh well


you can tell me that but don't don't raise your voice when you say to me or you should you should use these words


because it would be heard better i think as a person who's not part of that community i think it's important for us


not to tell them that however it might be mind helpful for us to think about that


when we're working with other folks too i agree i just don't think that it's right for us to put expectations on


other people who have said you know what i want to become an ally i want to move towards


this direction and then have an expectation of what that looks like for them i i don't think that's right it wouldn't


be right for me to put that on you it wouldn't be right for you to put that on me um you know we want to be allies we're


choosing to be in relationship together and to love one another for me just to expect a certain level of anything from


you um that you maybe didn't want to give or maybe even didn't consider giving i think is inappropriate


um that doesn't mean you're not my ally do you know what i'm saying the same thing for for for you now if we can talk


through some things and we've made some decisions together this is the things that we're going to be doing for one another and then some things just come


automatically like holding space for one another uh just because of of um the


relationship that we have but but i think we need to be real careful that okay you've decided to be my ally so because you're my ally i need you to be


doing this this this and this i don't think that's reasonable


does that make sense not that you would ever do that because you've never done that to me i'm just saying i wanna i i just think that's


something that we need to consider when we're talking to people about being an ally or


having someone that they could recognize as their ally that that doesn't come with um


things that we expect of them or guidelines that we expect them to follow be to be our ally


i'm yeah i'd yeah would you thank you i would just think on that some more


okay um i will it's okay for me to put expectations on you to be my ally


i think it's probably yeah i mean i need to trust


that if you say that if i do these things that i'm being an ally than you then that's that's


important to me like if you're telling me how i can be an ally to you


i that's what i want to do so so i don't know what if it but what if it


um puts you in a space where it compromises who you are


i don't yeah maybe maybe it you know it depends


on the situation but maybe i need to need to take one for the team


maybe i need to take one for the team or figure out how i can and really ask myself


am i really willing to be an ally yeah i think that's some good things to


consider awesome well sorry


just random thoughts i think that if we're not honest with one another and share our thoughts with one another then it leads us in deficit and i don't want


to do that because i love you yes and yeah


yes anyway we could talk about this for like forever um and i'm sure it'll come up


plenty of times in the future but thanks everyone for joining us this evening this morning


um wherever you're um coming in contact with us we are glad you are here um we'd


love to hear from you about um your thoughts on allyship and how one could be


an ally um if you have any feedback on our conversation today also i'll put some


links in the description from some of the things that i checked out that you might might be good places to check out


from as well i wanted to give a shout out to bob kaiser who is a new patreon for um for a queer


chaplain um and i also wanted to thank our other um our other


patreon members uh casey mark todd jonathan


gabriel jeff jeffrey violet and joey thank you all for your monthly contributions to queer chaplain


productions um to put on um you know to do splintered grace as well as a number


of other um other things so join us next week um we will be here


same time um the time to with the time change and everything else it's 8 a.m


pacific standard time 9 a.m mountain time 10 a.m central time


and 11 a.m eastern time if you want to join us live on facebook youtube or


twitch um either on our personal socials or at a queer chaplain


all right do you want to say goodbye have a great week we'll see you can figure out which are we going


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